Josh Pollock of Caldera Forms – I Just Want the Thing to Work – BoldLife 2.0 Episode 1

Transcript

Demo: 00:03 Hello and welcome to the first episode of the BoldGrid BoldLife podcast. I’m your host Mike Demo and I’m joined by my cohost. Jesse. How are you doing Jesse?

Jesse: 00:13 Not Bad.

Demo: 00:15 Anything new over in the Denver space?

Jesse: 00:18 Uh, well we finally broke a 60 degrees yesterday, so that felt amazing.

Demo: 00:25 That is awesome. Have you been playing any games recently?

Jesse: 00:28 Uh, you know, it’s been a busy weekend, but um, I did get through a toy story and kingdom hearts.

Demo: 00:35 Ah, Nice. So I just picked up Firewatch and I beat that, um, while on the plane coming back from WordCamp Miami. Nice. So speaking of WordCamp Miami, it was an amazing time and I got to hang out with one of my good friends, Josh from Caldera forms who is joining us today. How’s it going Josh?

Josh: 00:53 Really good. Nice. Just be on here today.

Demo: 00:56 How was WordCamp Miami for you?

Josh: 00:57 Oh Great. So I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Thursday it was like 70 degrees and I went for this walk and I was like, this is amazing. And I went to Miami and I just walked around and talked to friends and it was a great time. Um, and now I’m back in Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh’s great. But cold,

Demo: 01:17 yeah, well I’m in Minnesota and we’re up to 40. Um, it gets to high 40 right now. So yeah, it’s, you know, we started to see some ice melt. It’s amazing. But Hey, but then that’s all looking great. So for those that don’t know, can you give a quick overview what Caldera forms is?

Josh: 01:36 Right. Um, so Caldera forms is a free drag and drop a responsive form builder for WordPress. We really pride ourselves on having something that can do anything. We call it a Swiss army knife. Uh, people use it for like event registration, contact forms, surveys, uh, signing people up for lists and segmenting them, uh, you payments, all that kind of stuff. And then what’s kind of unique about Caldera forms is that we found a lot of customers were having problems getting emails delivered and making sure they looked right. Um, so we vote Caldera forms pro, uh, that sort of all that weird complex stuff of sending emails, which now I know like way more than I ever thought I would know about. You don’t need to know about, um, we just solve that for you and then we give you the way to help the nice looking html emails and PDFs. Um, so that’s kind of what’s seen about Caldera forms pro is that once it’s going through there, we can do things like add additional layers of anti spam, things like that.

Demo: 02:34 So there are forums pro I, you guys hosting the SMTP mail servers or are they still going to send mail? How does that work?

Josh: 02:42 Okay, so we totally bypass your email, right? wp_mail is like, we’re presses function for sending emails by the phone and Caldera forms, that’s what it does. And we further along it’s time, made it really easy to replace that functionality. And the first thing we did was make it so like you could use send grid for it. Um, which was neat, but you still needed to set up your own domain names. Um, right. All the DNS records, you know, the promises that the way that a lot of WordPress sites are set up, it impersonates an email servler and if that sounds suspiciously like a phishing attack, um, that’s correct. And that’s what like Gmail and exchange and Yahoo was seem to think right. They’re like, hey, we haven’t authenticated this random word restaurant. Whereas being act able to send email as you know, bold grid.com or Caldera forms.com and that’s probably a phishing attack and we’re really concerned about those. So we’ll just not deliver those emails. Oh, so solving that for every site that’s, you know, paying for Caldera forms pro is actually easier for me than explaining to everybody who’s using it, how to set up those services.

Demo: 03:58 Yeah. Then you have to pay for their services depending on your volume as well.

Josh: 04:01 Right. So it’s probably cheaper just to use us, but the differences like every now and then something goes wrong and like Nico and I see it and we change it for everyone. Um, and most of our customers just don’t see it. And so like WP SMTP, like that plug in, um, that’s just an SMTP plug. You’re still on the hook for setting up an SMTP server, um, for setting up your domain name authentication or you know, you can run things through Gmail. Uh, I just don’t feel like we’re at this place in the WordPress space where if we’re to keep, uh, getting just regular people, just need a website that we can be telling people about dki m records we should be telling them, fill out two text boxes, you’re done.

Jesse: 04:47 I think, I think in my experience, I’ve met a lot of brand new, um, business owners who have, um, you know, bootstraped their business to create their own website, which is what WordPress’s promise is, right? Um, and then they wonder why their emails either don’t get delivered or go to spam. And it’s like, well, yeah, technically WordPress spoofs your email, uh, unless you, unless you do something about that. So that’s a major, major problem to solve for a lot of people.

Demo: 05:19 Yeah. But it’s more than just email, right? It’s that turnkey thing. And that’s going to kind of get into what we’re going to talk about in a minute is you know, we’ve talked about possibly having a WAF, uh, uh, you know, built in to bold grid as like a feature thing. But the biggest issue we’ve talked about is that a WAF has to have DNS routing. So, you know, we do do some security things and with the backups in BoldGrid backup and things, but I expecting the user to change the Dns to go through a web application firewall if you’re a beginner user is a big ask. Now, some of the larger providers do now have one click DNS changing. If you using c panel, like securi a lot, you can log in to see panel and it changes everything automatically without having to know that.

Demo: 06:04 But those are fairly new features for some of these offerings. But it’s still be quiet as people to have some technical knowhow on their web server and yeah, you add D IKM records or a SendGrid or mandrill or any of that stuff. It just adds a lot of layers of complexity, complexity that you don’t get. And the worst thing that would happen is if somebody buys a WAF application through a third party provider installs, their plugin gets hacked because they never finished the setup. And then they’re like, well I bought the thing, why didn’t it work? And then that’s the worst case scenario.

Josh: 06:38 Yeah, it right then. So spam is part of this for us, right? So we have a couple layers of anti spam, but really the bad bots that do spam should never be able to load the page or access to the end point. You know, that’s more of a like a web application firewall type crawl in, then that’s where it gets tricky to integrate .

Josh: 06:59 But you’re right, that’s part of the stack here. And like, you know, we do things like run it against black lists and you know, the email delivery providers we have, have their own features, which we’re working, you know, we integrate with for high spam, but yeah, like that’s the thing, it’s that, you know, Squarespace gives you the whole side and those were handed of WordPress providers like me give you a part of it. And you know, um, we were at dinner the other night, somebody asked a question about blocking these, uh, at Aaron if he was just like, yeah, it’s like a whole data center level.

Demo: 07:31 Oh yeah. You know, you don’t see enough traffic on just your site to rarely kind of see how stuff happens. Like a go daddy of the world are some of the larger hosts. You can start to see those patterns. Um, Aaron Campbell, uh, the former security lead of the WordPress project, um, he’s now he’s at Godaddy. Uh, he’s now sponsored by them and still contributes to the project. We were at dinner at hardrock. I’m having some impossible burgers in Miami. And for those of you that know me, you know, if there’s a hard rock, I haven’t been to I, that’s usually where I’ll end up. So with that,

Josh: 08:03 which a great vegan food by the way.

Demo: 08:06 Well that being said, you know, I take care of your Josh, I bring you cookies. I picked Vegan restaurants. I, I got you covered. So Jesse has got a no cookies from me so I’m not seeing what you mean.

Jesse: 08:20 I have a aspersion to chocolate. So most of the time I just explain it like I don’t have a sweet tooth. I, Yup.

Josh: 08:32 Okay.

Demo: 08:33 Ah, there we go. Uh, before we start talking about like Squarespace, wix and Weebly, you talking about anti-spam. I’m, I’m gonna put in my, uh, two feature, two requests that I wish Caldera had a just cause I have you hostage. So feature request a, I would love it if you had integration with bright verify, which is an email and phone verification service. I’ve used it for large fortune 500 companies. We use it at BoldGrid to make sure email lists we collect at events when people sign up are real emails. And it allows you to reduce your bounce back by leaps and bounds. And it’s super cheap. It’s like half a penny per email verification and I, it has an API and I’ve used it inside of forms that I’ve done at my last one. We do agency work and a couple of companies ago and we reduced their costs and their, you know, their bounce backs as really high because making sure that only people that are filling out the form, it’s like advanced a recaptcha because it makes sure that the emails people are typing in or not fake throwaway emails and it has like all this weird scoring with it.

Demo: 09:40 So that would, that would be a nice to have that I would personally love to see. And then I know you have integration with Zapier through the web hooks. I personally think it’d be cool if you could be in the Zapier directory just so that more people could find you. Just cause when people are searching for WordPress forms, you’re not coming up on there. And, um, I think that’s a shame if people don’t know about you, if there may be coming in from the Zapier side. So

Josh: 10:04 yeah. So coming back up from the Zapier thing in the verify email, this is, let me actually, let me answer this in terms of how I like to try and make decision making decisions because we’re a small company, right? So I have like really big ideas for this. And um, the reality is there’s like two of us working on this product right now, right? There’s five or six of us, but Nico and I are the ones who were developing it in. So that’s just kind of a limitation. There are other people were doing third party development add on, which helps solve that for us. But, so let’s talk about verifying identity when you sign up. I think that’s a key feature. And I know that not just because, uh, like obviously, but we have a verify email addon, uh, we’ve had this forever. It’s free on .org.

Josh: 10:51 Um, and it basically sends a link that tells you to click it to verify your EAP and that he says like WordPress, it’s like nonce to verify it. So basically that into that tells me that like this is a feature that people really need that satisfied but could be bad. So then I hear you suggesting something like this service and I’m like, okay, I like that and I’m getting that kind of validation of, you know, you work at a large company and you use that to solve this problem better. Um, so yeah, I mean it sounds like a great idea. I’ll put it in the stack, uh, with some priority yet.

Demo: 11:30 Yeah, check it out. Cause what’s really nice about it is it allows you to not to have to do that, um, click the verify step because it has its own logic and its own AI and will, the, one of the cool features is it has different like email scoring so that if it’s a role email address like CEO at a, then it has to look at other things like how long has this site around? And then if it fails a score, then it might you back of action might be, okay, I’ll shoot you an email to validated. But it kind of has that like that streamline where you don’t have to do that step for most people. It also validates phone numbers and names so that it can tell if a name is made up or not. Or for phone numbers, a real phone number or not. So yeah.

Josh: 12:17 For a user base like ours, we just have to get into, they’re the verify email thing. It’s not as good. It also doesn’t require a third party API connections.

Josh: 12:27 Sure. Right. And so it’s free. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: 12:30 It’s free in terms of, it adds a little bit, you know, your site gets more requests. Okay. That’s a good payout trade off versus paying for an API. And you think that’s where it gets tricky for business like ours. And then the thing is with Zapier, it literally comes down to nobody asked for the APP besides you. Um, whereas when the web hook, sure. Integration, right? We have the Zapier thing that’s really just a Web Hook, right? Technically speaking, it’s a web hook processor or we call it Zapier because that’s how consumers like to see it. Sure. And then I assume that we were going to get feature requests and support tickets that needed out features and we’d sort of use that as a baseline, but then that never happened. Does he? Like the web hook just works for all this stuff. And so yeah, I think that you’re talking about an in terms of like exploring new avenues for channels, you know, for acquiring customers and like, I like that part. Uh, and I don’t know, I talked with a lot of people who are looking to develop third party add ons for Caldera forms. So you know, I’ll keep repeating things

Demo: 13:39 and that’s the interesting part for us is like we have a support center where people and an idea pool and Jesse you see a lot of this where people get feature requests and it’s like that catch 22 do you wait until the users are requesting the features or do you look at the features more holistically and you’re completely correct that functionality? The web hook does a bunch of stuff, but if somebody is starting on Zapier, they might not even, and they click type in WordPress forms. Other options come up and knock Caldera because Caldera is just a web hook. And so there’s different avenues to prioritizing features. Jesse, when you’re kind of looking at people and team orange and they’re requesting different features, how do you see kind of the trends going? Do you feel like we are followed, we are following maybe user feedback or which

Jesse: 14:30 It’s definitely a mix of both I think Josh hit the nail on the head on whether, you know, there’s, there’s always a balance too. What’s the demand for it? Uh, what is the, what is the resources required to implement it? And, um, it’s just a cost that we take on is it’s a cost that we pass to the customers, is this, um, you know, is it, is it something that’s going to add enough value to justify that cost? Um, you know, there’s, there’s, uh, there’s a bunch of things to think about. Um, and the, uh, most of the requests we get are, um, like slapping the face, no brainers. Like, why didn’t we have that before? Okay, yes, we’re going to do that. Um, so yeah, it, we definitely get a lot of, uh, uh, valuable or requests like that. Um, and then some of them are such edge cases that it’s like, well, you know, that might, that might benefit, you know, less than a 10th of a percent of our user base.

Demo: 15:32 Okay.

Josh: 15:33 Yeah. And I think the other side of that is, let’s say that I agree totally with Mike that, um, a new, you know, and new zapier add on that did all it, you know, features that you get out of an app and that like, that’s totally a thing that my customers need. My next question is, right now I literally have a graph on my whiteboard of where I am and where I want to go and I have to ask myself, does this get me there?

Demo: 16:02 Sure. That’s always the challenge is you have to prioritize your resources, be it development time, uh, revenue, things like that. But as we kind of look at the future of WordPress, WordPress is changing and as Jesse said earlier, you know, people are buying into WordPress because it’s that turnkey offering. But as you said, Josh, you got Wix, Weebly and Squarespace which sells websites in a box. It says everything from hosting. You’ve got the email in there, you know, you got the third party apps that you might need. Well, not even third party, but you have a lot of, they do. We do third party catalogs, but a lot of functionality built in like forums, et cetera. It’s very similar to like what hubspot’s doing any cause. Hubspot’s started as just marketing automation but then they added their CMS and then their sales and their service suite.

Demo: 16:51 And you can literally run your whole business on hubspot and not having to have to have any third party anything if that’s what you want. So how do us as building WordPress plugins, because in the BoldGrid space, we solve a similar thing as a wix, Weebly, Squarespace. But we’re focused more on the website design, you know, get you online quickly or the inspiration onboarding process, but you’re correct that while you might need a stores, so then you need a login, woo commerce or something. So how do we in the WordPress space solve these challenges of where the market’s going because people are buying monthly payments. People are okay with the wix and Weebly and Squarespace pricing model. Yes, I understand. A lot of people are like, well I host on my own so they don’t own my, so I don’t have to pay a monthly fee. And things and that’s great, but we know that there’s a large segment of the market that’s fine paying a monthly payment because those companies are growing. So how do we try to service that Avatar or a persona in the WordPress space in that ecosystem of like plugins? Right?

Josh: 17:52 So here’s how, let me back up one step, which is that there’s a friction I think that I see as a plugin, you know, marketer of a plugin and for WordPress, you know, somebody who advocates for WordPress is that we’re trying to talk to people who build websites for a living and people who are DIY buying a website for their business, for their big idea, for their political cause, for their, you know, for their story, right? Those are two very different types of cut of people. If that makes it really hard because we start both of those, right? We serve the person who’s starting their own business. And the only way there’s a website is if they build it and we’re serving people, serving people who, and those folks, I think if they can afford it and they’re growing, it makes sense for them to spend $15 a month or $20 a month on Squarespace.

Josh: 18:43 And if they’re convinced WordPress is going to do that, they’re going to their right to expect Squarespace and Shopify out of WordPress. And we don’t always do that. And I think that’s in conflict sometimes with the site builder and the person who builds lots of sites who has a more sophisticated understanding, who not only has a financial benefit but a management benefit of self hosting. Some of this stuff, right? You can get a v Mamet, you know, good vps and put 50 clients on it. That’s actually easier and a lot of ways and it’s definitely more cost effective than buying 50 individual hosting plans, you know, and having a unlimited license to the plugins to the themes and that makes it harder to have that like Squarespace, or whatever. Like it just works all in. Why

Jesse: 19:34 What I’m reminded of is when I was younger and in high school and in college. Um, and I, I got, uh, you know, uh, uh, a really low and laptop from my parents for Christmas one year, um, and it had windows ME on it. And, um, because of that I got into Linux. And um, during that time, um,

Demo: 20:02 I like how you say got into Linux. Like it’s a controlled substance and

Jesse: 20:10 It’s definitely an addiction with negative side effects. Um, right. So you, you have, um, ecosystem out there, um, of open source projects and things like that. You read their little description in the, um, in the ubuntu application store or wherever it is and, and you download it, you try it. Um, it breaks some things and it doesn’t work and you fiddle around with it for a little while and then you try something else. Um, the, the experience on the other hand, if you think of it like maybe like a Mac is apple

Jesse: 20:48 curates the software that you can use because they’ve, they’ve tested it, they know it works. So they’ve got, they’ve published it in the APP store, um, and wix and Weebly and Squarespace do that sort of thing, that currate the, the little widgets that you put in your website and they know it’s just going to work. Um, and, and in an open source project like WordPress, um, that’s, that’s really difficult to do because every, every plugin developer has their own thing that they do. And they may have, you know, not, uh, protected their plugin from interacting with other ones. Um, and so it maybe, maybe, uh, some amount of curation, is it a bad thing for that avatar that, you know, say, you know, these are the things that interact with each other. Well, and we’ll, we’ll provide the solution to, you know, x, y, and z problems.

Demo: 21:46 And that exists already somewhat. So obviously the current WordPress plugin repository does do some checks to make sure that it passes the standards and the codex, all that stuff. But you see hosty companies are starting to do that curation for you. A good example is liquid web with their woo commerce managed offering, right where they have, okay, you want woo commerce, you’re going to get, you’re going to get all of this stuff in a box that we know plays Nice on our infrastructure. WordPress.com which is an automattic product, does similar things with their add ons and jetpack and things. So you’ve seen a little bit of that on the hosting level, but a lot of people just are going to whatever hosts they have and maybe especially not a managed host where it’s kind of the wild west. And I always give the example when I did trainings for clients that had new websites, I’m like, okay, so you can add new apps or plugins. Think of it like the APP store and do you know when you add all this stuff to your phone when the iPhone just came out, how it made it worse? That’s how you have to think about your WordPress site is that you can probably do it with core. And that’s the thing is I don’t think core gets enough credit on any CMS, WordPress included. I think everyone’s so quick to install. If they’re a party thing and they forget what’s built inside on the box.

Josh: 23:09 Yeah. You know, I installed app that didn’t work really well at all in my phone. The android for the first time I was like, Oh yeah, I’m going to jail break this. I’m going to put it sideloaded apps. Right. Cause I was like, I was just working in the music industry because this was my opportunity to play with computers. And now like I just, I just want the stock thing and I just want the thing to work.

Demo: 23:32 Do you want it to work?

Josh: 23:34 Right. So this is why I’m not like, even though I’m a nerd and I know like that there’s all sorts of way cooler less, you know, surveillance, ie versions of android. Um, look, I just need the pixel pixels, this magical thing that just works. It’s made my life so much better versus my old phone. But I installed an app the other day and it didn’t work and it reminded in like I tried another one. I was trying to see something with like, I think the Twitter API kind of broke all the good, uh, Twitter apps that was sort of going down that road. And it reminded me of, there was a time where I would sit there and install like 10 plugins on my site.

Josh: 24:10 Hey, like, hopefully none of them crashed it out. Totally. But I had the SFTP window open to delete them and there was no assumption that any of this stuff was just getting work that I was downloading from WordPress.org right. Maybe people like me who’ve been around for a while, we need to remember that. That’s not the world we live in today. That’s like, if I’m just like, Hey, I know how to do a code review, I wouldn’t put the code on my site that I haven’t read all the code to make sure that it goes like that’s gatekeeping. That doesn’t scale.

Demo: 24:42 That’s a good point. Because I remember the days, you know when I was doing a Joomla WordPress site that I was looking for, let’s say a mega menu plugin would install one, nope. Doesn’t work. So all the next one, nope, doesn’t work. Install one that works close enough. Edit some CNS CSS, but to the average users, like to what Jesse was saying with Wix, Weebly, Squarespace, hubspot, et Cetera, their certification process where their third party plugins is pretty intense and yeah, there’s usually a BD relationship, their business development deal, but people are more used to the phone experience. I install it and it works and I think that is the challenge that we have to do and that’s why things like the WordPress codex and ways to validate, to make sure the code is good so that we’re all playing nice is a good thing. I always remember like bootstrap remember when bootstrap first came out and the whole idea of the promise of bootstrap was everything’s going to work together.

Demo: 25:39 All the widgets will be styled and you’ll just have to worry about your bootstrap styles. But every plug still has their own dang themes that load in their own bootstrap. And then you’re spending more time doing overrides to get it to match the look of your site. So there’s the technical possibility, which is you make one boot strap and then all your stuff should just feed in from that. And the real reality, which is, well I want to sell theme, I want to sell skins as a feature in my premium version. So I’m gonna have my own bootstrap, we’re just going to override your themes, bootstrap styles. So it’s that really weird dichotomy of what uses expect and what, how developers are coding.

Josh: 26:17 Yeah. So fun fact Caldera forms, ships, it’s own bundled version of, of uh, bootstrap. And we don’t use it on Calderaforms.com. Like there’s a switch to turn it off in the Ui. that’s really nice form styles. Um, right. Like we designed a plugin.

Jesse: 26:37 Let me just say thank you on behalf of everyone for adding that switch in your UI.

Josh: 26:38 Right. Cause it’s like, why don’t you vote? Why would a I on Calderaforms.com Wilwood Caldera forms the plugins, very generic, neutral, easy to customize, you know, good for when you need Dab, like a little bit of CSS to finish it up. Sure.

Josh: 26:55 When I have all, I have all of the bootstrap stuff that looks perfect on my theme and it was designed for my side of my brain. Right. And so I think that’s what we’re talking about is that sort of like sensible default in sometimes in WordPress it’s impossible to put back for

Josh: 27:12 Where it’s like, oh they do 90% of what I need and undoing that 10% makes this a nightmare. Or they do 90% of what I eat and it’s really nice and easy to add on the extra 10% of customization. Great. Those are two stories that people tell about WordPress and I think that it’s not just about getting that 80 90% it’s avoiding the right. Like I don’t think that moving forward it’s possible for something as complex as a Caldera forms or a Ninja forms there to say we work with everything. Right? Versus we work specially with that. Um, and this is the thing we’re doing at Caldera forms right now. Like we put out earlier this week an announcement that we have this translations add on that we knew customers needed and we knew it wasn’t good enough. Um, and we think WeGlot, uh, does that translations plugin, um, like just automatically translates everything that lets you go in and change it. We think that’s the best solution for WordPress translations. So we made it work perfectly with Caldera forms.

Josh: 28:24 You know, that’s the nature. That’s the kind of thing that we want to tell people is here’s some hooks and filters you can use if you’re a developer to build your own. But like install this, click a few buttons and it works. That’s such a different perspective. Then, you know, when I came into this and I started, I moved from WordPress.com to unmanaged hosting at a company. I won’t bad mouth publicly, um, that, uh, you know, because I was like googling how to do x and I ended up having to change functions dot PHP. Um, that was great. Then that’s not, now. We should have switches that solve these problems and make sure that people get that 90% done and the rest is easy.

Demo: 29:11 Definitely. So with that, I know we could keep talking, but in the interest of time we got to kind of wrap it up. So Josh, uh, how can people follow you online? How can people find out about Caldera forms? Are you on social, Twitter? What are all your, uh, areas that people can interact with you?

Josh: 29:29 Oh, so Twitter, um, I have a love hate relationship with, but I spend a lot of time on it. Um, so @Josh412, uh, I tweet a lot and I don’t take offense of people mute or ignore me. Uh, but I tweet about WordPress and privacy and you know, my politics, but @Calderaforms @CalderaWP for Caldera, news on social media and Calderaforms.com. I Calderaforms.com/blog. We do the once a week post. A lot of them are just stuff about WordPress. Um, you know how to do it. Your analytics was a recent one. Business reviews, um, you know, automatic translations with WeGlot, we try and get a good mix of what’s new and WordPress, what’s neat and WordPress and you know, what’s new with Caldera forms there. So can I reform [inaudible] dot com slash blog sort of the best way to keep up to date on what we’re doing and what you know, other neat things to the word press space bar

Demo: 30:28 Awesome and we’ll have the links for that in the show notes on boldgrid.com and the link should also be, and the episode description.

Jese: 30:36 Yeah. So see how can people attract both? Good. If you would like to join our user community does not. You don’t have to use bold grid. We’re looking for a variety of WordPress users, non WordPress users, developers, designers, a small business people, large business people, uh, at facebook.com/groups/bg

Jesse: 30:59 team Orange at Jessie C. And if you would like to follow me, my Twitter is at MP Mike. And what’s your, as Jesse and this upcoming weekend I will be in Austria for Joomla Day, Austria. And then the following weekend I will be at WordCamp London. So if either of those events, please come by and say hi and I might even have a tight dress for ya. Well, thanks so much, Josh. Really appreciate you taking the time.

Josh: 31:41 Thank you for having me on.